Monday, August 24, 2009

The Hitler Offensive

After watching more incomprehensible town hall hijinks, I began to wonder how so many thirtysomething, ditsy, housewives became such experts on Hitler and Nazism. I realize that the usual suspects; Limbaugh, Beck, and other dim bulbs with red faces, have been working the Nazi angle for weeks, but they're not the ones furnishing the "Obama as Hitler" posters appearing at an event near you. That distinction belongs to Lyndon LaRouche, the perennial candidate for president on the Democratic side, although LaRouche is a Democrat in the same way as say, Leon Trotsky. He's been called a philosopher and visionary economist, but also a cult leader who uses his young followers, an anti-Semite, a fascist, and a convicted felon and ex-convict, the last two being non-subjective. His twisted message is all here. It's been confirmed that the woman who asked Rep. Barney Frank "why he supports a Nazi policy?" is a LaRouche devotee. How damaged must your reasoning be to accuse a gay, Jewish congressman of supporting the Nazis? It shows zero knowledge of history and is painful and offensive, not only to the memory of the victims of Hitler's genocidal regime, but to the sacrifice of almost a half-million American servicemen who died to rid the world of this demented demon of the twentieth century.

I know the argument; "this sort of extremism happens on both sides," but it seems to have broken out like poison sumac on the populace over the summer. As much as I despised the philosophy and actions of the Bush government, you would be hard-pressed to find any comparisons to Hitler in four years of these posts. Know why? Because I fucking know better. It's the cheapest, meanest, and dumbest sort of protest there is. Don't like Obama's health care initiative? Compare him to Hitler. It would be ridiculous on its face were it not for the fact that so many impressionable and angry people, especially in the South, have embraced this as a good idea. So, as long as any geek with a grudge feels entitled to discuss the Nazis, I'll break precedent and give it a stab. Which leader is more Hitleresque? One who wishes to make decent health care accessible to all citizens, or one who invades a sovereign nation without provocation and sets up a systematic, worldwide, torture ring? I report, you decide.

The handsome people in the above photograph are my great grandmother, Sala Haspel, with my two great uncles, Josef and Pavel, and Aunt Frania. The picture was taken in Warsaw and sent to her third son in Memphis, my grandfather, who was the only member of his family to escape Europe alive. See, all these people were murdered by the Nazis, and as meticulous as the Gestapo was known for their record keeping, there is no trace of them anywhere. Their names are not listed in Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, nor in the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. They simply vanished from the earth. I had always known this, but some years ago, I came into possession of my grandfather's papers, and after seeing their faces and learning their names, it became far more personal. I read his anguished letters to foreign ambassadors and government officials about learning the fate of his "dear ones," without result. This is the dismay that all the Hitler comparisons evoke in millions of people like me, and provokes the contempt I feel for those who use them. And all over health care? There is something deeper and more disturbing here that must be faced.

The past eight years have caused me to surrender my pacifism. I had the notion that the Republicans lost the last election and we might try something new. But after witnessing the disruption, uncivic behavior, and general obnoxiousness at Rep. Steve Cohen's town hall meeting in Memphis, I think the only way to effectively communicate with some of these goons is with a left hook. Please forgive my passion on the subject, but there is free speech, and then there is hate speech. I'm neither young nor strong anymore, and perhaps I lived so long under the protection of the late Sputnik Monroe that I feel emboldened, but should anyone ever approach me with that Hitler stuff at a public event, I will do my dead-level best to fuck you up. Either that, or I hope I'm on your "death panel." Oh, I'm sorry. Should I have said, "Mister?"


Anonymous said...

Randy, if I could shake your hand or give you a hug, I would. The 24 karet gall of the Larouche people just defies belief. Really pisses me off. No one did this to Bush.

Some small humor, if you'll forgive me. When I opened your site and saw the picture of your relatives, the first thing I thought was that, "the guy on the right has a laptop open in front of him...". Guess not.

Give my best to M.


Anonymous said...

You are so right...people play the Hitler card too quickly...

The brainwashed whackos who attend and disrupt these meetings are more like the 'brown shirts' than any democrat I have ever met.

Gregg Grinspan said...

RJ---With tears in my eyes I believe I understand all too well the frustrated rage that you felt as you wrote this piece. When you suggest that you would fuck them up, I understand. When you characterize the difference between free speech and hate speech, I understand. I am touched and truly saddened when I see the pictures of your family. But, I don't see the way you feel as being ruled by "passion". No. I see it as very basic self defense against the ignorant hateful mob.

I'd say,"my, oh my, isn't that a shame that that poor woman at that rally was used by the devious bastards whose lives are so unfortunately full of the twisted logic of hate." But, at a certain point that poor stupid lady is as much of a propagator of unnecessary human suffering on others as the sad idiots who sent her out. If that poor sad ignorant tool of a lady created a situation that caused one of my family not to get the health care he/she needed, or was sent to a war that didn't need to be fought, etc., then I'd have to say that the poor sad ignorant lady was like the poor sad ignorant German foot soldier who held a gun while his buddy knifed an unarmed Jew/Gypsy/Catholic/other non-Aryan.

It's unfortunate that just fucking them/her up won't rid us of the ignorance that kills and maims innocents. But, I'm with you. Ignorant people who mess with the rights of others to have life, liberty, and the pursuit (which requires good health) should be taken out any way that gets the job done.

Drew Hadfield said...

Slap the patented "Sleeper Hold" on the bastards. I see a definite resemblance to the gentleman on the right.

Anonymous said...

The Nazi comparisons first came from the left. It was Pelosi who tried to compare the Town Hall Protesters as Nazis. Now you are laying on the right the blame of people who support a far left Lyndon LaRouche supporter. We live in a free country and anybody can show up at a Town Hall Meeting and piss off either side with no effort. To assume that the person pissing you off is truly from either side or a plant to convince you otherwise is pure gullibility. I lived and protested in the 60’s & 70’s. We knew the way to get our ideas out in the public arena was to get news coverage. We became very adept at doing this. Instead of public discourse on government it has come down to sound bites on both sides.

Health Care reform is needed. The blame for the state health care falls on the Insurance Companies, Tort Lawyers, Government, Hospitals & Doctors. Talk to Doctors that you know well. Ask how much defensive medicine is practiced. Where are all the Doctors, Nurses and healthcare professional going to come from to provide the services? Healthcare reform needs to be a slow and careful process.

Father Farken said...

G*d Bless Yah! Randy! Your picture and essay have moved me to tears. Van Gogh once painted empty boots of a peasant friend who had died. The peasant had worked and walked all over the hillsides of Europe. The shoes were crying out SILENCE as if they were mourning! Your picture of your great grandmother, two uncles and aunt brings to mind a word from the book of Hebrews..12th chapter. The writer speaks of so many great Jewish men & women that have gone before us...surrounding us like a great cloud of witnesses...cheering us on to continue to fight the good fight and to look to the author and finisher of our faith. It also says "that even though Abel has died his life will continue to speak words of life to us." I bet you can say that about your Great Grand Sala as well. That great cloud of witnesses we call saints are calling us to say yes to life & to roll up those sleeves & plunge both hands into life up to the old elbows.
When me great grand Maggie & me great grand Ferghus the First left Ireland because of British oppression there was a picture taken of them with the whole Farken family...all holding up a potato as if to insert it up the collective arse of the so called Royal family! Aw! Seems I have some work to do! Ah yes! To forgive them all! The Peace of the LORD1 Your dim faced Padre! Father Farken

Gimme a Break said...

Your piece on Jim was classic writing. I was hoping you would let it simmer a little longer, but I see you are back in your one-side substandard ways.
You think because there is a screamer at a town meeting, that it gives you a license to ignore all the legions of normal people that don't want your stinking health care bill.
I am just like many people who don't belong to any organization. I didn't go to the town meeting and scream at anyone.
I don't want the Obama plan. I don't have to scream at anyone for my opinion to be valid.
You can't see the forest. There are too many trees in the way. If you could, you wouldn't admit it.
America does not want your plan.

Juan said...

A BEAUTIFUL column, Randy, and I feel the anger as strongly as you do.
I abhor ignorance and hatred, especially when they are combined with
the intention of harming someone who is trying to dig the country out
of 8 years of the worst administration in my 76 years. No hatred
involved there, as you said, but just sheer stupidity and lies.

I am still hoping for the best to happen for Obama, and I have faith
that it will.


PS...I also thought that the gentleman on the right had a laptop.
With your wonderful sense of humor NOTHING would surprise me

John said...

Man, you’re right on (as usual). One thing that’s become evident since the election is just how deep-down-to-the-bone RACIST (and xenophobic) these folks are. Sure, they’d be demonizing Hillary, but rather than being anti-Nazi, their willingness to embrace the most absurd scare tactics – Obama as Hitler – and conspiracy theories – he ain’t even Amurrican! – shows the type of fear of the ‘other’ that ENABLED the Holocaust.

keep up the good work,

- john b.

Anonymous said...

I heard a discussion on a talk show about how it is difficult to draw comparisons of Obama's leadership with Hitler because of the tendency to equate the name of Hitler and of the Nazis only with genocide. It is a knee-jerk reaction. The issue of Obama and Nazi tactics has nothing to do with genocide. The significant aspect of comparing Obama's policies with Nazism is in regard to NATIONAL SOCIALISM and the tactics used by Hitler and the Nazis in acquiring power and making social/political changes. The genocide aspect is not intended in this instance. But, when Hitler's name is invoked people always think of genocide. There was more to the Nazi movement than that. The issue in regard to Hitler is not genocide, but the tactics used by the Nazis to gain power and implement their agenda. In this respect, comparing the tactics of Obama and the far left with Nazism may not be so outlandish. And, now I am becoming acquainted with a new concept...that of the liberal redneck. And Randy, you are the first. I will have to be on the lookout for others. I feel sure that you are not alone. Get your feeling off of your sleeve. I am a descendant of Native Americans. Don't you think that I know something about genocide. We live in the 21st century and I don't know anyone who took part in the genocide against my ancestors. The perps are all dead. I can't hold a grudge against their progeny. I don't think that I would hit anyone for saying, 'The only good Indian is a dead Indian'. But, that's just me. It's ok by me if you start fights over something that happened decades ago. Again, all the perps are dead.

Anonymous said...

You lump all the protesters at the townhall meetings into one basket. Why do you do this? There are the agitators, but I can guarantee you that there many more who are simply concerned citizens who do not agree with the direction that Obama and the far left is taking the country. Sure, Obama was elected on the prospect of change, but he gave precious few details as to what the change he has in store for us entails. As people see his agenda fleshed out many are changing their minds about him. That is ok in a free, democratic society isn't it? I mean you elitists are still going to give us a chance to dissent and express our views aren't you. Or, have you stepped up what you have in store for us and are you about to curtail dissent? I figure that can't be far behind. In the 60's and 70's I bet that you thought that all of the disruptive tactics of the left were pretty cool. Now that the conservatives are raising a little hell you are appalled. Forgive me if I expose some of your hypocrisy. If these townhalls were focussing on the agenda of a conservative president somehow I feel that you would be raising a ruckus at the meetings and feeling very justified in doing so. Human nature is a weird thing and conflicts between opposing views often result in bloodshed. You admitted to as much. It just goes to show that we are always guilty of what we condemn in others. You (and most liberals) are a living, breathing poster boy for that addage. I figure that we are gearing up for a revolution of some sort. It will be the socialists vs the free market capitalists. Those who have their hands out for what others have earned vs those who would like to spend the money they have earned as they see fit. The government is just the pick pocket between the two groups...the hired gun of the takers. The host organism might just rise up and kick the shit out of the parasites.

Bobby said...

I like your latest editorial very much. I have read a recent book on Holocaust deniers and basically they take a minute part of history and generalize from it the totally erroneous conclusion that the Shoah never occurred.
Many of the people who shout down advocates of any kind of health care change are motivated out of greed (spend no more on those who cannot afford coverage) and fear. Ironically, they call Obama and his forces Nazis when they actually fear the supposed socialism the new policies would bring.
There can be no further opposites than National Socialists and socialism. What many of these pudding heads equate is socialism with communism. I agree that Bush (Dubya) was a Nazi (Hitler) in the way he invaded Iraq and set up world wide torture and surveillance techniques. We could not exist without the possibility of being spied upon for the sake of national security.
Every time the color code was raised, someone in the Republican Party made money.
It may be too late for America to regain her self-esteem. Our citizens do not realized the self-imposed dangers we create. Why in the hell are we still in Iraq and Afghanistan? Gates says it will take years to win there. Hell, Randy, we will never win there, just ask the former Soviet Union. Obama said he would get us out in 16 months, now it is at the end of 2010?
I hate to admit it but all of the political leadership in this country is corrupt, evil and incompetent. As far as I am concerned, this country gets what it deserves.
CBHS '65, MSU 'BA 69 MA '76

Anonymous said...

Liberals believe that food, clothing, shelter, and now health care should be taxpayer funded rights. Sex is another basic human need. So, what's next? Perhaps taxpayer funded, government-run escort services or brothels to provide orgasms for the orgasmless. And, how about the indignity of having to wipe your own ass? Perhaps we will see the day when government ass wipers will be on call. All of these so-called rights and government services are like a Venus Fly Trap to the weak and susceptible. They get on the government hand-out farm and become too weak to leave and the situation becomes a generational problem. Star Parker has written eloquently of her own entrapment in the welfare system and the efforts that it took her to escape. The problem is that a large segment of the poor will be happy with their allotment of government-issue food, clothing, shelter, and now health care. Why bother to do any better. You can supplement your government check by selling dope, sex, and other petty crimes. And the liberals feel wonderful about their 'compassion' on these folks. There is something dehumanizing about this situation. It is probably more about getting elected and holding on to power than compassion. That's what Star thinks anyway, and I agree with her. If all the welfare people went to work, the Democratic Party would disappear. 90% of their voter base are from the parasite class...those who never had the drive to become anything or to do anything. So, they elect Democrats to rip the producers off and pass the loot on to them. What a brilliant way to profit from the weakness of people and then be self-deceived enough to feel good about it.

Anonymous said...

Bobby, with all of your education I would think that your compositional skills would be better. You even acquired your education before everything was dumbed down to accomodate the minorities. You share the same tired, old views that your liberal compatriots hold. However, I have to agree with your last statement...'all of the political leadership in this country is corrupt, evil, and incompetent. As far as I am concernd this country gets what it deserves'. I don't think I have ever heard a liberal being even handed with his loathing of the government. Most of your ilk reserves their contempt only for Republicans. I feel that it is neither heads (Republicans) nor tails (Democrats), but rather that the entire coin is of spurious value. Government itself is the problem and not the particular party that happens to be in power and screwing us at a given time. You may be that rarest of all creatures, a relatively fair and balanced liberal. But then, I may be wrong.

Liberator_Rev said...

As a former R.C. priest who grew up in the shadow of Pius XII, I've been shocked at the role played by the Catholic Church in the holocaust.
I left that church and its priesthood 40 years ago and have been researching the shameful part played by the Christian churches in the holocaust for years and have been publishing my findings at CatholicArrogance.Org/RCscandal .

Randy, I agree wholeheartedly with the views you expressed and regret the ignorance of those who found fault with you.

Sputnik57 said...

Mr. Anon.
Forgive me if I'm so unsophisticated I can't separate the Nazis (National Socialists) from genocide. I understand that Hitler did make the trains run on time. I just showed you a photo of my immediate family and you call that a "knee-jerk" reaction? You may not know who personally committed genocide against your native-American ancestors, but I DO know who killed mine, and the perps ain't half dead. This took place within our life span and it is not ancient history to be brushed aside, and any comparison between Obama and the Nazis is simply obscene. The fact that you can't see that is demonstrated with each of your inane comments. Sorry pal, but you sound like a straight-up racist to me. Too much "fair and balanced," huh?

Anonymous said...

Right on Randy, I'm so sick of the racist bastards, I can hardly breath.Has everybody gone to the moon?

Cousin Cliff said...

I am personally a big believer in Godwin's Law: generally an argument or debate is automatically lost when a Nazi comparison is made. However, I saw very few on the left, you included, object to 8 years of Bushitler and similar references. Enjoy this nice pictoral retrospective:

Liberator_Rev said...

Cousin Cliff,
IMHO the problem isn't that people see a similarity between Hitler and Bush vs. Obama. The problem is that those who see the similarity with Bush have GROUNDS TO DO SO, whereas those who see the similarity DON'T.

Did Obama's grandfather and great grandfather finance Adolf Hitler's rise to power? NO. But George W. Bush's did? see JesusNoRepublican.Org/Bushfamily. This is just one of a hundred reasons.
On the other hand, Bush-lovers compare Obama to Hitler on ridiculous grounds such as both Hitler and Obama were extremely popular. So Marilyn Monroe, Frank Sinatra, the Beatles, Elvis Presley were Hitler-like, too. These people also think Hitler was a "socialist" (just like Obama) because his party was called "socialist". Maybe these people think this way because they also believe that being members of the "Christian Knights of the KKK" is proof that they are genuine Christians!!!

Anonymous said...

Liberator Rev do you profess to be a priest of Jesus Christ or are you just a rabble rousing phony who wears clerics? You seem entirely too political to function in the realm of the spirit.

Anonymous said...

Randy, you speak of those who see similarities between Obama's tactics and Hitler (even if they are wrong) as perpetrators of hate speech. And you call me inane?! To tell you the truth, I don't know what they are talking about. I was just pointing out that comparisons of Hitler and Nazism and their tactics can be made with regard to issues other than the Holocaust. That is all that I meant to say. I had heard a discussion of that very issue recently and the participants spoke of knee jerk reactions of people who go nuts at the mere mention of the words 'Hitler' and 'Nazi'. My statement was not original. Maybe I should have sent you a tape of the program. Anyway, you say that a person who expresses these ideas is guilty of hate speech and you would silence them with your fists. So much for the free market place of ideas. Why not educate the person as to his error and put your own real hatred and proneness to violence over someone's opinion aside? It seems that there is some sublimation going on here. It's like your wife pisses you off and then you kick your dog. I am sure that they mean no disrespect in regard to the Holocaust. Very, very few people would wittingly do such a thing. You cast aspersions on my mentioning the genocide of Native Americans because you seem to think that it was ancient history. In fact, it preceeded the Holocaust by just a few decades...60 years or so. And the perp in the Native American genocide was none other than the American government. See, I do know who the perps were. And, maybe that has something to do with my extreme distrust of the government. The government may decide some day to do to conservatives what they did to the Native Americans back in the 19th century. It's not likely, but the American government is a very dangerous animal regardless of the party in charge. I would never belittle such a monstrous thing as the Holocaust. But I would like to think that if I should ever mention the words 'Hitler or 'Nazi' in a public forum that I wouldn't be assaulted by a deranged liberal. I would much rather be corrected in my thinking if I am wrong. If you have a better idea, I want to know about it. I am not a hard-core idealogue. I'm just trying to figure out what is going on. And, I would just like to be included in the democratic process without fear for my safety. What is the term for those who would use force to silence ideas?

Liberator_Rev said...

One of my online pet peaves is people posting as "anonymous". For one thing how does anyone know which anonymous is which and who said what?
In any event, I want to answer the one who questioned MY credentials: "are you just a rabble rousing phony who wears clerics? You seem entirely too political to function in the realm of the spirit."
Why do you associate "rabble rousing" and "political" with "phony" and associate true ministry with "functioning in the realm of the spirit"?
Jesus was put to death just three years into his ministry BECAUSE - far from "functioning in the realm of the spirit" - he
was viewed by the clerical and political leaders of his day as a "rabble rouser" meddling in the politics of his day.
You are reflecting the ideas that Hitler persuaded the churches to adopt, i.e. "you clerics and we Nazis will get along just fine so long as you leave politics to US, and you stick to the realm of the spirit".

See just how "political" Jesus actually was at

Anonymous said...

Liberator Rev, thanks for that response. Now I know that you are a phoney. You probably have more in common with Marx than Christ. The Catholic Church is probably glad to be rid of you. I won't expend any more energy debating with you. So long...

Liberator_Rev said...

Anonymous, You are SOOOO right. The Catholic Church was happy to get rid of ME, because I expose it's fraudulence. Me it couldn't stand, but priests who molest boys and girls as young as 9 MONTHS old, it had to keep and protect and hide close to its bosom!!!
And most of the Roman Catholic LEADERS of the Nazis, the Roman Catholic Church did not want to offend or excommunicate. See, i.e. people like Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Josef Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich, Rudolf Hoess, Julius Streicher, Fritz Thyssen (who bankrolled the Nazi rise to power), Klaus Barbie, and Franz Von Papen were all Roman Catholics, as were the heads of all of these NAZI countries : Leon Degrelle of Belgium, Emil Hacha of Bohemia-Moravia, Ante Pavelic of Croatia, Konrad Henlein of Sudetenland, Pierre Laval and then Henry Petain of Vichy-France. and the R.C. priest, Msgr. Josef Tiso, of Slovakia.
(who wasn't even defrocked after the defeat of the Nazis). Although these were among the most visible Catholic lay people in their countries at the time, did Pope Pius XII excommunicate a single one of them? NO. How can anyone say that this pope did "all that he could", when he failed to take this obvious measure so as to make it clear to the millions of Catholic faithful who were enabling the Nazis to carry out their campaigns of mass murder, not only against Jews, but against their fellow Catholics in Poland, that they should have no part in these monstrous of crimes and most mortal of sins? Apologists for Pius XII who claim that their crimes caused these people to be "automatically excommunicated" miss the point that excommunication isn't intended to tell GOD who is a Catholic and who isn't but to tell THE FAITHFUL whom to shun.

Anonymous said...

I'm afraid that the Hitler comments are simply a way of saying, "I do not want a single-payer system of healthcare delivery (like every other country has). The American government has failed to win the confidence of the majority that it can deliver this service. It is interesting because they are competing with an industry that has also failed to deliver this service. I'm afraid fisticuffs will only feed the overburdened healthcare system:)

Sputnik57 said...

Lib Rev,
As a Jewish graduate of the Christian Brothers, who also remembers Pius XII with chagrin, I appreciate your candor.
Christian Brothers High, 1965

SIREEN said...

Dear Mister Reverend Doctor Lib Rev! I am so sorry for the bad experience that was inflicted upon you in the priesthood of Holy Mother the Church but I must tell you that you have jumped from the frying pan into the fire! Don't you know John Wesley was called by his gang of preachers "Pope John" because he was such an arrogant, rigid authoritarian! His brother Charles thought he was a pain in the ass. He was so superstitious he thought every rain storm was God punishing him or the Devil was out to get him! He would make decisions by drawing straws, randomly opening the Bible with closed eyes & pick out his guidance from above. He decided to marry by drawing from a hat. He got so mad at his wife that one day He pulled her by her hair & dragged her down the gravel road to the middle of the town to humiliate her! He was a plagiarizer! passed other peoples works as his & his as other people' Toplady {who wrote Rock of Ages) denounced Wesley as a crook & that he should be deported back to the Brits! He was so anal that he didn't have time to grieve! When his daughter lost a child he said "Great! She is now in heaven & you now have more time to serve the Lord!" As if being a mother is not serving our Lord! He thought husbands and wives were far too indulgent & would reprimand couples spending too much time on booty call! He thought parents were far too indulgent with their children! He thought all Anglicans who were not of the Methodist society to be almost Christians & non-conformist protestants to be worthless! And oh yeah! He said no nation should tolerate Catholics! (Hmmm!) And Mr. Rev, Doctor Lib Rev John Wesley said "The Methodist Society should always attend Anglican Parish services...if the Methodist ever leave the Anglican Church God would leave them!" OOOOOPS! You see I had a bad experience in the Methodist Church and I have found solace in the Catholic Church through the ministry of Father Farken who occasionally writes on this blog! Now I don't want to get in a pissing match with you especially with your male gadget advantage & get all wee wee'd up & all! And no! The Church is not the best that God can do! God has given us His best...Jesus! God's love to us! Let us walk in his ways! John Wesley's Bsatard Child! SIREEN

Liberator_Rev said...

I find it amusing, Sireen, when people who want to walk away from "pissing contests" want to be the last one doing the pissing!

#1 In the 300+ of my web pages there's hardly a mention of the United Methodist Church to which I belong or of John Wesley. My agenda is to promote the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth, not of John Wesley.

#2 In case you hadn't notice, Wesley's been dead for 2 centuries and has had no replacements that I know of.

#3 At CatholicArrogance.Org I catalogue the SYSTEMATIC corruption of the Roman Catholic Church over the course of centuries. If you want to be more impressed with the irrelevant idiosyncrasies of ONE Methodist that has had little if any impact on the church he founded, than with the constant corruption of YOUR Roman Catholic Church, then enjoy!

Anonymous said...

I am impressed with your revelations in regard to the Catholic Church, Liberator Rev. I knew that the Catholic Church has been rife with corruption down thru the ages but I didn't know many of the details. I think that I will read some of your stuff now to become better educated. I can forgive the fact that you are a Marxist if you will educate me. See the power of effective communication? Rather than trading insults, you became an educator and that may put me thru some changes. Like I said before I am not an idealogue, I just want to know the truth. And, I have to admit that I am impressed with Sireen's knowledge of the history of Methodism's dark side. I bitch a lot about politicians, but I love being educated better than I love bitching about politics and politicians. I have even asked Randy in the past to enlighten me on some of the reasons that liberals do what they do thinking that if I had a better understanding from one of their own I might be drawn a little more to the left, but he ignored all of my pleas and seems to prefer insults to effective communication. I feel that if I had a better understanding of why liberals think and do what they do I might become less rabid. Maybe Liberator Rev and Sireen can do for me what Randy refuses to do. And perhaps others of conservative bent who read this blog may profit as well. Oh, and sorry for being hard on you Rev. You may not be an authentic man of God, but you may be an effective teacher. I can buy into that. I am going to jot down your links and do some homework.

Father Farken said...

THE CHURCH MAY BE A WHORE BUT SHE IS STILL MY MOTHER! Attributed to Augustine, Calvin & others!
A few years back I got to hear the brilliant Rabbi David G. Dalin speak. He said that accusing PP XII of being indifferent to the holocaust is a recent development based on fiction. He said that 700,000-800,000 Jews were saved by Rome opening all churches, convents & monasteries...He is worth reading! but like Sireen I don't want to get in a pissing match either! Maybe its best to take out the confessionals and bring them to the streets. marketplaces, campuses & nursing homes & as a church beg the wounded world that Jesus died for to forgive the church for not ushering in the values & attitudes of our loving, gracious Lord & instead making a pretty big mess of things in various ways! Germany was steeped in antisemitism! Luther's last essay was a pathetic tract against the Jews! That is not fiction! Don't think Hitler didn't use it to flame his fires of hate. Yes the church needs to repent! Judgement always begins at home!The Peace of the Lord! Father Farken

Liberator_Rev said...

I hate trying to have conversations with "Anonymouses" as opposed to people whose identity his hidden in fictitious web names, because the web names are at least unique and consistent.

In any event, I must take issue with being accused of being a MARXIST because I believe what the bible teaching which may have inspired Karl Marx.

Anybody familiar with the talk show host Neal Boortz knows how close he is to Hannity & Limbaugh. Yet, when it comes to the famous summary of Karl Marx's teaching, 'From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs", I can't improve on what Neal Boortz has published on the matter :
"Though there is good evidence that Marx actually lifted this little ditty from the Torah (one of the most important sections of the Hebrew Bible), it has become recognized as perhaps the pre-eminent motto of Communism.
I bring this up today because it is becoming increasingly clear that the international Communist movement needs to get one of its lawyer pals to hurry out there and trademark its precious motto. If it doesn't act fast, "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" is going to become the de facto motto of the Democratic Party, quickly becoming known as the Socialist Democratic Party."

Everyone has heard of "guilt by association". In this case conservatives reject much of the liberal teaching of the bible because they associate that teaching in their minds with Karl Marx, while ignoring the fact that Boortz himself recognizes in the passage above that Marx stole the very core principle of his philosophy from the Bible!

I spell all of this out in great detail at

Liberator_Rev said...

I fear wearing out my welcome by posting too much here, but since Anonymous has asked a multiple part QUESTION, it appears another response would be appropriate:
Re: this part of A's question:
"I have even asked Randy in the past to enlighten me on some of the reasons that liberals do what they do thinking that if I had a better understanding from one of their own I might be drawn a little more to the left, but he ignored all of my pleas and seems to prefer insults to effective communication. I feel that if I had a better understanding of why liberals think and do what they do I might become less rabid. Maybe Liberator Rev can do for me what Randy refuses to do."
all those interested in this very urgent issue will find imho one of the best answers to this question on the www : my LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/definitions/
(of the real meaning of the labels "liberal" vs. "conservative").

TXTWERP said...

It is fine if Christian communities choose to live amongst themselves in a communist fashion, but don't impose socialism or communism on the rest of the world who choose not to fashion their economic lives in that manner. That sort of imposition smacks of Taliban-like will follow our dictates or else! Some of you folks think that you have an imperative from God to force everyone in the world to live their economic lives as you do. Very Talibanesque. They are convinced from their scriptures of their rightness and are going to force it on the entire world, or heads will roll. I have seen evidence of a sort of Christian Taliban-like thinking in other domains, like censorship for instance, or the banning of alcohol, etc. In effect they are saying that the rest of the world must live according to their values. I prefer freedom myself. Oh, Rev. I am going to go by the handle of TXTWERP. Does that make you feel better?

Liberator_Rev said...

Fr. Farken,
I always ask those who are impressed with Rabbi Dalin, who purports to refute the books by John Cornwell and Daniel Goldhaggen, how they can evaluate his work without first reading the works of THOSE authors, which Dalin critiques. Compare their work and you will understand why Cornwell and Goldhaggen are employed by some of the most presitigious universities in their countries, Cambridge in England and Harvard in the U.S.A., while "Rabbi" Dalin is employed by the 6 year old Roman Catholic ultra-conservative Ave Maria "University" with 600 students. Whether you have the time or resources to get and read all three books or not, you can see why that reading lead me to view Dalin's work as a comic book compared to their scholarship at CatholicArrogance.Org/Hitlerspope.html.

The Watcher said...

Looks like we have internecine warfare in regard to the Catholic Church right here on this blog. I am watching with bated breath. Oh, Liberator Rev. please address my question about the Talibanesque tactics of you and your Marxist buddies or Christian socialists or whatever. You seem to feel that you and your ilk have a mandate from God to force everyone into the socialist/communist mold. Why not form communist enclaves in the ghettos and leave the rest of us alone. That way you can take care of the poor and the rest of us can live in a freemarket capitalist society and everyone will be happy. Those who want to be communists can live in your enclaves and the rest of us can live the way we choose. Or do you just hate the idea of freedom and material success? Are you something of a communist Grinch who wants to steal Christmas from Whoville...can't stand to see free people prosper...want to see everyone wearing black pajamas and riding bicycles? Oh, and I decided that it is boring to go by one handle. I am going to change it periodically, but you'll know who I am.

Tweedle-Dee said...

A while back someone asked about Nature Boy. I heard that he died a natural death which is fitting. He went into the woods to take a shit and some wild hogs ate him. Now that was an ecologically friendly way to die. Except when the hogs fart which contributes to green house gases. I reckon we should harness their farts make them part of Obama's Green Revolution. The problem would be delivery. How can you make wild hogs all fart into a pipe so that the gas can stored in tanks for home use?

Sireen said...

The church may be a Ho but she still my momma! I like that Father Farken. That had to be a brother. You know Augustine of Hippo was an African Brother! Now this Mr. Rev. Doctor Rev Lib is sounding so arrogant. Maybe we can log on to! That pissed me off the way he took the gun to Mother Theresa! Screw That! That is just mother church humping wrong! Who died & made him Jack Chick! There! I said it! Thank you Jesus! Yours Truly! SIREEN

Tweedle-Dum said...

Liberator Rev you have a war on your hands now. Sireen is a buzz-saw when she is pissed off. I would like to see if you can placate her now that you have got her going. The folks here will chew you up and spit you out. I know, because I have been f-ing with them for a long time.

Anonymous said...

Wow! Now the socialists are at each other's throats. A house divided...

Anonymous said...

Liberator Rev, you are new here and you are obviously a scholar so let me clue you in to a thing or two. You were probably drawn to this blog because you recognized kindred leftist spirits, and you are right about that. But, this blog is almost exclusively Randy preaching to his choir. Randy will write a piece and the members of his choir invariably say things like, 'Yup, yup, you are right about that Randy. Way to go, Randy, you are always right, yup, yup'. The typical response consists of a few affirmative statements. You will seldom see any evidence of critical thinking and practically never any challenges to what he says and practically no criticism. That usually comes from outsiders such as yourself, and the choir will let you know pretty quickly that if you oppose Randy's thinking or the thinking of some of the insiders in any way, then you are not welcome. If you can handle this state of affairs then rave on, but don't get overly sensitive, because you will get your knuckles soundly rapped if you don't follow the party line as Randy lays it out. Academically, you seem to operate in a different sphere. Outside of Randy who is pretty sharp, you won't find many mental giants here. I just thought that I would give you a heads up so that you will know something about what to expect. You might ask what am I doing here. I only screw around here because I am retired and bored, and I like to rattle the cages of liberals. I live far from any population center and there are no liberals around here to tease. Sometimes I miss the presence of liberals, because they are kind of cute when they get pissed off.

Sputnik57 said...

Boy, do I ever love a good theological fight. Lord Krishna, posing as a charioteer, told Arjuna not to disengage from a family dispute. And we haven't even gotten into the Christian Supremacy movement that began in the 70s. In this regard, I find myself in agreement with the Watcher, strangely enough, that there are a lot of holy scriptures in this realm, mostly written to modify the behavior of an unruly society. But I, like Hillell, can recite my beliefs while standing on one foot; "Do justice, seek mercy, and walk humbly with thy God."

Alan said...

Liberator Rev. mentioned Bush’s Grandfather bankrolling Hitler. He and all the people who take this lie as fact should check history. Bush’s Grandfather worked for Averell Harriman at Harriman’s investment firm. It was Harriman who worked with the Nazis before the war. This is the same Harriman who was a close confidant to FDR and later the Democratic Governor of New York and Commerce Secretary under Truman and Ambassador to Great Britain and the Soviet Union. He was a candidate for the Democratic nomination won by Stevenson. This is the perfect example of how both sides color the truth.

The Watcher said...

Alan may make me eat my words about there being no mental giants participating in this blog. I enjoy being proven wrong when I am really wrong. He sounds pretty erudite for this forum. I guess it just goes to show you that you can't believe what a man says (Liberator Rev, for instance) just because he is educated. He may be educated to the wrong facts. I hope that Alan keeps an eye on this blog to keep the facts straight. There is a lot of smoke being blown from both sides of the political spectrum. There was an old game show in which the participant who was telling the truth stood up at the end of the show. So I say, 'Will the real truth please stand up?' It is a shame that bad feelings develop between people of good will over conflicting points of view. I know that Randy is sincere in what he believes and says and is just interested in having the right thing done. But, what is actually the 'right' thing. My biggest problem (and one shared with many others) is that I am scared shitless in regard to politicians and the government. History shows a perverse tendency for one group to exercise control over other groups. The same dynamic can be seen in any type of relationship involving people...marriages, friendships, etc. There is a strong tendency for one person or group to want to lord it over another. Since I am a freedom freak, this tendency makes me wary of governments. This is why we need an unbiased press to be a watchdog over the government and blow the whistle on them when they step out of line so that the people can make the necessary corrections at the polls. A huge problem is that we have a corrupt mainline media who is in bed with special interests and to hell with the citizenry. This makes for paranoia in the freedom freaks. We don't want to be absorbed by 'the collective'. A big fallacy says that we are 'all in this together'. I am in this with people who share my values, beliefs, etc. I am not 'in this' with the collective. I guess this amounts to saying that one of the great divides in this country is between individualism and collectivism. This divide may be insurmountable. Give me liberty or give me death. This sentiment is what leads to wars and revolutions. I will fight the collective till my dying breath and lots of Americans feel the same let it rip.

Nature Boy said...

This comment is in regard to the individualism/collectivism issue. I read an article back in the early 70's which said that H.D. Thoreau would roll over in his grave if he knew that a bunch of collectivists (the hippies of the day) had adopted him as their poster boy. The writer of the article went on to say that the irony was that these collectivists had adopted as their guru a man who was the champion of individualism and self-reliance. Thoreau would have vomited over the way that welfare is implemented in this country. When chided for doing nothing for the poor, Thoreau responded by saying that whenever he tried to instruct a poor person as to how he might live as well as he did, the poor wanted no part of it, because Thoreau sustained himself by the work of his own hands and lived within his means which was very sparse. You don't find many hard-working people who live in poverty unless they have 20 kids. Another issue, Thoreau's vision of diversity involved the individual. He believed that the best form of diversity would result when each individual developed his unique individuality to the max by marching to 'his own drummer however measured or far away'. The current perversion of the idea of diversity is to have as many different warring groups as possible, each vying for their own interests. Some have called this untenable situation the Balkanization of America. How can you have any sense of unity when each group is encouraged to gain supremacy and have their own way. It is like so many coyotes scrapping over the kill. Thoreau was probably the greatest anti-collectivists who ever lived. It's amazing that the communards never saw this because individualism was written over every page of his masterpiece 'Walden'. And, he was no friend of the government to say the least. And, one last thing. Who is the lying asshole who said that I was devoured by wild hogs? A pox upon him. Nature Boy is alive and well and living as narurally as ever. Long live the spirit of Thoreau!! Screw the collectivists and the government. I am not in this thing with everyone else. I am in this thing with other individuals who think for themselves and who are able to take care of themselves. And I don't need no stinking government to tell me which way the wind blows.

Anonymous said...

Talk about political expediency!!! Kennedy passed some legislation back when Kerry was running for president in case he won which would work to the Democrat's advantage. When it became apparent that he was going to die he tried to undo the legislation that he had previously passed and form a new law to the advantage of the Democrats after his demise. And you wonder why so many people despise and distrust the government. It's because the government is filled with expediency-prone crooks who put politics above the welfare of the folks...among lots of other bogus shit. How shamelessly blatant can you be?

Father Farken said...

When John Kennedy died we said "Jack we hardly knew ye!" Now that Ted has died we don't know what to say because we knew him all to well. It is probably true that his endorsement of Obama stole the Democratic nomination from Hillary Clinton & that Oren Hatch was his secrete lover!(Nah!) He was definitely a great part of what we call American politics! Woo Hoo! May he rest in peace! What saddened me more was the announcement from Tweedlee Dee that Nature Boy had died...eaten by wild hogs or something! I was in deep mourning! Glad to know that rumor was false! NB is still kicking! Hallelujah!The Peace of the Lord! Father Farken

Nature Boy AKA Mr Natural said...

Father Farken you are the best! Someone should have told the false prophet Liberator Rev that you are a true man of God (unlike himself) and that he had better tred softly where you are concerned or I'll join Sireena in reaming him out. Of course, I would do that naturally with a piece of rose branch or something similar.

Father Farken said...

Thanks Mr.Natural! Glad you are alive! All this time I didn't know that you were also Nature Boy! That's like Nat Cole & Ric Flair all rolled up into one! Who-ooh! Yes Mr. Natural it would be inappropriate to play "Bridge Over Troubled Water" @ Senator Kennedy's funeral. Don't even go there! The Peace of the Lord! Father Farken

Liberator_Rev said...

Nature Boy,
If you think you're original in calling me a "false prophet". That's the reason the "Religious Right" clergy of his day invoked for executing Jesus of Nazareth, who told people like me who would dare to preach what he preached, "I have said these things to you to keep you from stumbling. They will put you out of the synagogues (or "churches"). Indeed, an hour is coming when those who kill you will think that by doing so they are offering worship to God. And they will do this because they have not known the Father or me. But I have said these things to you so that when their hour comes you may remember that I told you about them."

Are you capable of doing more than calling me names? Ever hear of logic, and having arguments to support the conclusions you reach?

Liberator_Rev said...

Sorry, Allan, but it's not a matter of either Bush OR Harriman, but BOTH.
"According to 'The Splendid Blond Beast,' Christopher Simpson's seminal history of the politics of genocide and profit, Brown Brothers, Harriman was another bank that specialized in investments in Germany. The key figure was Averill Harriman, a dominating figure in the American establishment. . .
"The firm originally was known as W. A. Harriman & Company. The link between Harriman & Company's American investors and Thyssen started in the 1920s, through the Union Banking Corporation, which began trading in 1924. In just one three-year period, the Harriman firm sold more than $50 million of German bonds to American investors. 'Bert' Walker was Union Banking's president, and the firm was located in the offices of Averill Harriman's company at 39 Broadway in New York.
"In 1926 Bert Walker did a favor for his new son-in-law, Prescott Bush. It was the sort of favor families do to help their children make a start in life, but Prescott came to regret it bitterly. Walker made Prescott vice president of W. A. Harriman. The problem was that Walker's specialty was companies that traded with Germany. As Thyssen and the other German industrialists consolidated Hitler's political power in the 1930s, an American financial connection was needed. According to our sources, Union Banking became an out-and-out NAZI money-laundering machine. . .
"In [1931], Harriman & Company merged with a British-American investment company to become Brown Brothers, Harriman. Prescott Bush became one of the senior partners of the new company, which relocated to 59 Broadway, while Union Banking remained at 39 Broadway. But in 1934 Walker arranged to put his son-in-law on the board of directors of Union Banking.
"Walker also set up a deal to take over the North American operations of the Hamburg-Amerika Line, a cover for I.G. Farben's NAZI espionage unit in the United States. The shipping line smuggled in German agents, propaganda, and money for bribing American politicians to see things Hitler's way. The holding company was Walker's American Shipping & Commerce, which shared the offices at 39 Broadway with Union Banking. In an elaborate corporate paper trail, Harriman's stock in American Shipping & Commerce was controlled by yet another holding company, the Harriman Fifteen Corporation, run out of Walker's office. The directors of this company were Averill Harriman, Bert Walker, and Prescott Bush. . . CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

Liberator_Rev said...

" ". . . A 1934 congressional investigation alleged that Walker's 'Hamburg-Amerika Line subsidized a wide range of pro-NAZI propaganda efforts both in Germany and the United States.' Walker did not know it, but one of his American employees, Dan Harkins, had blown the whistle on the spy apparatus to Congress. Harkins, one of our best sources, became Roosevelt's first double agent . . . [and] kept up the pretense of being an ardent NAZI sympathizer, while reporting to Naval Intelligence on the shipping company's deals with NAZI intelligence.
"Instead of divesting the NAZI money," continue the authors, "Bush hired a lawyer to hide the assets. The lawyer he hired had considerable expertise in such underhanded schemes. It was Allen Dulles. According to Dulles's client list at Sullivan & Cromwell, his first relationship with Brown Brothers, Harriman was on June 18, 1936. In January 1937 Dulles listed his work for the firm as 'Disposal of Stan [Standard Oil] Investing stock.'
"As discussed in Chapter 3, Standard Oil of New Jersey had completed a major stock transaction with Dulles's NAZI client, I.G. Farben. By the end of January 1937 Dulles had merged all his cloaking activities into one client account: 'Brown Brothers Harriman-Schroeder Rock.' Schroeder, of course, was the NAZI bank on whose board Dulles sat. The 'Rock' were the Rockefellers of Standard Oil, who were already coming under scrutiny for their NAZI deals. By May 1939 Dulles handled another problem for Brown Brothers, Harriman, their 'Securities Custodian Accounts.'
"If Dulles was trying to conceal how many NAZI holding companies Brown Brothers, Harriman was connected with, he did not do a very good job. Shortly after Pearl Harbor, word leaked from Washington that affiliates of Prescott Bush's company were under investigation for aiding the Nazis in time of war. . .
". . . The government investigation against Prescott Bush continued. Just before the storm broke, his son, George, abandoned his plans to enter Yale and enlisted in the U.S. Army. It was, say our sources among the former intelligence officers, a valiant attempt by an eighteen-year-old boy to save the family's honor.
"Young George was in flight school in October 1942, when the U.S. government charged his father with running NAZI front groups in the United States. Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, all the shares of the Union Banking Corporation were seized, including those held by Prescott Bush as being in effect held for enemy nationals. Union Banking, of course, was an affiliate of Brown Brothers, Harriman, and Bush handled the Harrimans' investments as well.
"Once the government had its hands on Bush's books, the whole story of the intricate web of NAZI front corporations began to unravel. A few days later two of Union Banking's subsidiaries – the Holland American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation – also were seized. Then the government went after the Harriman Fifteen Holding Company, which Bush shared with his father-in-law, Bert Walker, the Hamburg-Amerika Line, and the Silesian-American Corporation. the U.S. government found that huge sections of Prescott Bush's empire had been operated on behalf of NAZI Germany and had greatly assisted the German war effort."

Mr. Natural said...

How come none of the perps, Bush included, were not prosecuted for treason? I would like to have Alan to corrobate this story. No offense Rev, bit it's confusing when two experts have conflicting accounts. You are obviously a scholar, but I would like to have a second opinion on all of this stuff. I am not a historian. You are an excellent teacher, but I would like to have your facts vetted. One more thing. The quip about being a false prophet was not meant to be an insult. I don't think that you would pass yourself off as a true man of God, would you? A good historian and teacher, but not a real man of God in all that that implies in terms of being a spiritual intermediary of Jesus Christ under His anointing. If you feel so, under what spiritual authority do you operate other than your own?

Alan said...

L Rev.
In 2003, the Anti-Defamation League responded, saying:
“ Rumors about the alleged Nazi 'ties' of the late Prescott Bush ... have circulated widely through the internet in recent years. These charges are untenable and politically motivated. Despite some early financial dealings between Prescott Bush and a Nazi industrialist named Fritz Thyssen (who was arrested by the Nazi regime in 1938 and imprisoned during the war), Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi nor a Nazi sympathizer.
Just a quick response. I can promise you that the Anti-Defamation League has never been close to the Bush family. I said quick as I cut and pasted from Wiki so I won't totally swear by the source but quotes are usually reliable

Alan said...

L Rev
I discovered your source.
Again I am lazy and this is another cut & paste from Wiki.

"John Paul Buchanan is a freelance journalist, and was a fringe Republican candidate in the 2004 Presidential race.[1] Buchanan was previously based in Florida[2] and currently lives in rural Georgia.
Buchanan discovered documents related to Union Banking Corporation's business dealings with Fritz Thyssen, the Nazi industrialist who broke with the Nazis after Kristallnacht in 1938 and fled to Switzerland during World War II; together with Stacy Michael, Buchanan wrote an article about it for the New Hampshire Gazette, accusing one of the directors of the bank, Prescott Bush, of dealing with the Nazis.[3][4][5]
Buchanan suffers from hypermania, a form of bipolar disorder, and when the media spurned his original attempts to publicize his findings, he e-mailed a number of threats against journalists and media outlets, saying that he would expose the journalists as "traitors to the truth." Buchanan was arrested and charged with aggravated stalking in Miami, Florida, over a dispute of how best to publicize his theories, but the charges were dropped in 2004.[2]
During his presidential campaign, he often referred to himself as "the 9/11 Truth Candidate".[6] He also opposed the 2003 Iraq war. A United Press International reporter called his campaign "unhinged."[6] With 836 votes, Buchanan finished in eighth in the 2004 New Hampshire primary, in which incumbent George W. Bush was not seriously contested.[7]"

Liberator_Rev said...

What are you talking about?
"I discovered your sources."
What's to discover? My sources are clearly spelled out on my web pages. And to my knowledge, I never quote Buchanan. I do recommend a video of his in which he states a number of facts which he claimed he found documented in the National Archives. Now all one needs to do to prove him wrong is show that the facts are not what he claims. But if people have to make ad hominem attacks on the basis of his mental health, it looks like the facts are not on their side!

Speaking of "sources", my sources (spelled out on my JesusWouldBeFurious.Org/Bushfamily.html page ) are books and articles filled with supporting information.

Your sources, on the other hand, (wiki & ADL) appear to be nothing but an opinion, with no supporting information whatsoever! Their motivation doesn't appear to be scholarship! Do they have some other (possibly political) agenda? In 2003, would it surprise you that they might be afraid of Bush, Cheney and co.?

Anonymous said...

So, how is the common man who is not a seasoned historian to determine what the truth of the matter is? There is so much bullshit on the internet that no one knows what to believe anymore. Hell, our public school textbooks are even questionable with all of the re-writing of history going on.

anonymous # 483 said...

Education and the ability to express an idea does not automatically make one an expert.
Be careful about bestowing accolades to newcomers.

Let them earn it.

Alan said...

L. Rev
I encourage everyone to look at the page from your web site and judge for themselves http://JesusWouldBeFurious.Org/Bushfamily.html

Father Farken said...


The Watcher said...

Marxist Rev why don't you tell the folks here a little bit about yourself. What are you educational credentials? For all we know you may be another Prince Mongo and you may have gotten the bulk of you education from reading The National Enquirer. Do you ride a skate board while wearing a propellor beanie? Just trying to imagine who and what you really are. Would the Pope give you a good rec or does Mother Church see you as an infidel? These things matter if we are going to believe the things that you say. As of now, you haven't been adequately vetted.

Liberator_Rev said...

I'll be happy to answer your questions as soon as you explain why you became a serial killer and how many young girls you molested before and/or after killing them.

The Watcher said...

Uh-oh, gang. IT looks like Marxist Rev may be a looney tunes. You had better help The Watcher watch him. And don't give him any clues that might allow him to find you. This guy sounds like a real sicko. What the f_ _k is with this serial killer rant? This guy may be another Jefferey Dalmer! At the very least he is a certified weirdo.

Sireen said...

Hey Mister Rev. Dr. Pastor Liberator Rev. Ray Dubuque! I rebuke that foul spirit of sicko/psycho speak in the name of Jesus. OUT! Fowl Spirit out! You may have lost all cred around here! You may not feel you have to win any ones respect but you have just lost mine! You owe Mr. The Watcher an apology! That was the ugliest response that I have ever read on any ones blog my entire life! May God have mrcy on your soul! Sireen

Liberator_Rev said...

Well, well, Watcher.
You have no problem hurling groundless insults at OTHERS. But if anyone gives you a taste of your own medicine, you think they are "looney tunes"!

Now if you are ready to grow up and
either apologize for calling me a "Marxist" or justify your doing so by explaining what makes me a Marxist, then we can get back to discussing matters civilly.

And as for Sireen, the difference between Watcher and me is that he was serious about his insults, and I was joking, just to make it clear how hurtful it is to make false and unfounded accusations about people, especially when you know practically nothing about them.

The Watcher said...

Alright, maybe I assumed too much. I did assume that you were a proponent of liberation theology which is a Marxist movement. If I am wrong then I do owe you an apology. But, if you are a Marxist the folks here will like you for that. I am one of the few non-socialists who frequent this blog. I assumed that you were a Marxist, so in my mind referring to you as 'Marxist Rev' was not an insult and I figured that you would be ok with it. If I have pegged you wrongly, then I apologize. Actually, I hope to learn some interesting history from you, not get into squabbles.

Liberator_Rev said...

The Watcher, You say,
"I did assume that you were a proponent of liberation theology which is a Marxist movement. If I am wrong then I do owe you an apology."

Who says that "liberation theology is a Marxist movement?
That's what the "Contras" of El Salvador said, the people that Reagan and Co. supported, in defiance of the laws enacted by our Congress, the guys who raped and/or murdered
Catholic priests and nuns whom they viewed as Three nuns were raped and murdered because they were viewed as "leftist sympathysers", fathers
Rutilio Grande, S.J., Alfonso Navarro in 1977, Ernesto Barrera in 1978, Octavio Ortiz, Rafael Palacios, Napoleón Macías in 1979.
Were the killers the "good guys" in your mind, because they were "contra Marxism"?

Archbishop Romero - who had been a Conservative in prior years - denounced what he characterized as the persecution of his Church: "In less than three years, more than fifty priests have been attacked, threatened and slandered. Six of them are martyrs, having been assassinated."
Archbishop Romero himself was killed by a shot to the heart on March 24, 1980 following a sermon where he called on Salvadoran soldiers, as Christians, to obey God's higher order and to stop carrying out the government's repression and violations of basic human rights. (in the name of acting "contra Marxism".

If the proponents of "liberation theology" were so evil, why weren't they the murderous rapists, instead of the victims of all this treachery?!?

The Watcher said...

Relax and exhale, Rev. You seem obsessed with violence. First you say something squirrely by insinuating that I am a serial killer, then you get into all of this rape and murder stuff all over the use of the term Marxist. What in the world is going on with you? You are beginning to make me a little nervous. I don't mean to offend you, but you are beginning to sound somewhat disturbed. Are there any counselors or psychiatrists who read this blog? If so, please do something to help this confused soul.

Liberator_Rev said...

Who do you think you are fooling - other than yourself - by saying "I don't mean to offend you, BUT you are beginning to sound somewhat disturbed," etc.?

Either you are a liar, or you have the sensitivity of a dining room table.
Which is it?

Liberator_Rev said...

The Watcher,
re your rant about me: "You seem obsessed with violence. First you say something squirrely by insinuating that I am a serial killer, then you get into all of this rape and murder stuff all over the use of the term Marxist. What in the world is going on with you? You are beginning to make me a little nervous."
What actually came FIRST were your baseless, insulting, squirrely charge that I am a Marxist.
It was only after that that I gave you a taste of your own medicine and I didn't "insinuate" that you are a a serial killer and child molester. I accused you of those disgusting behavior to show you how it felt.
If you had any sensitivity, you would have gotten the message, but I fear the effort was lost on you.
But if YOU are unable to "get it", I trust others here understand from what I have written that it is no laughing matter for liberal clergy to be accused of being "Marxists". A good number of us were MURDERED as a direct result of being viewed that way by conservatives. El Salvador may seem to be far away, but the murderers in question or their superiors were trained by Americans and financed by American dollars.

bknd2anmls said...

And I would love to watch you deliver that left hook, Randy.
Your dear grandfather....he lost everyone in his family. What a profound sadness he must have felt all his life...but he went on to have his own family. He must have been a very strong man. I couldn't survive a loss like that.
God bless him. Diane